July RAB Caucus Meeting

[Aimee Houghton <aimeeh@cpeo.org>]

 ****WARNING: THIS IS A VERY LONG FILE****

Date: July 3, 1998
From: Arc Ecology <arc@igc.org>

RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARD COMMUNITY MEMBERS....

 YOU ARE CORDIALLY INVITED
TO ATTEND A CAUCUS OF
RAB COMMUNITY MEMBERS

JULY 19-20 1998
Niles, Illinois

THE CAUCUS WILL TAKE PLACE CONCURRENTLY WITH THE PENTAGON'S

DEFENSE ENVIRONMENTAL RESTORATION TASK FORCE MEETING

JULY 21-23 1998
Skokie, Illinois

The National Caucus of Restoration Advisory Board Community Members is a
voluntary grassroots network of Community Representatives serving on RABs,
CABs, SSABs, TRCs and other citizens advisory committees overseeing military
pollution remediation and source reduction

 For More Information Contact
Arc Ecology
833 Market Street, Suite 1107
San Francisco, CA 94103
Phone: 415.495.1786 Fax 415.495.1787.
Email arc@igc.org

INTRODUCING
THE NATIONAL CAUCUS OF
RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARD COMMUNITY MEMBERS

WHAT'S A RAB CAUCUS?

A RAB Caucus is a network of community members of Restoration Advisory Boards
cooperating to ensure the proper cleanup of their local bases by working
together to create better regional, state and national base cleanup policy 
and
practice. The Caucus speaks only for its participants and not all RABs or
RAB members.

WHY WE NEED A NATIONAL RAB COMMUNITY MEMBER CAUCUS

RABs are an important vehicle for public input into the cleanup process, but
RAB performance is inconsistent. Frequently RAB members feel overwhelmed and
unsupported. Local Base Environmental Coordinators vary greatly in their
commitment to RABs, so many community members feel ill-informed about the
subject they have volunteered to give input into. Often RAB meetings are
little more than inform
ational sessions rather than forums for substantive discussions.

The purpose of a RAB Caucus is to create both a national network of RAB
community members and a vehicle to influence cleanup policies on a national
level. The Caucus could cooperate on:
Commenting on the development of DoD cleanup policies and guidances on a
national level
Advocating reasonable funding for base cleanup to Congress
Advocating greater oversight of contractors and reform of the contracting
process, in order to speed cleanup and reduce costs
Preventing amendments to environmental regulations that reduce health and
environmental protections
Sharing resources like model by-laws, charters and other RAB administrative
tools that enhance RAB members abilities to participate in cleanup decision-
making
Sharing expertise and experience between RAB members and providing aid to
Caucus participants with dysfunctional RABs or where community members are
experiencing harassment.

What we hope to achieve:

Cleanups that are protective of human health and the environment and
supportive of flexible reuse
Effective input into national legislative, DoD and EPA policies regarding 
base
cleanup
Halting reprisals against vocal RAB members
Community values driving cleanup plans

WHO PARTICIPATES IN COMMUNITY MEMBER CAUCUS MEETINGS?

RAB Community Member Caucuses are designed to be by and for community
representatives serving on RABs. RAB community members need the opportunity 
to
have frank off-the-record discussions of issues. The DoD and their
contractors tend to dominate RAB discussions and some individuals feel
intimidated about expressing real concerns for fear of retaliation. Therefore
the Caucus model respectfully exc
ludes the military, their contractors, and regulators from participating
except when they are invited to address an agenda item. This way participants
have the opportunity to plan strategies and reach agreements that may 
conflict
with DoD's agenda and take positions on a much broader set of issues than the
Defense Department would allow at individual RAB meetings.

A CAUCUS NEEDS TO MEET

Communications are very important to an effective Caucus. While it's
inexpensive to communicate via email, many RAB Community Members aren't
on-line and it's also difficult to have a large discussion over the phone or
by conventional mail. Therefore to make the best use of everyone's time, a
Caucuses will take place concurrently with Defense Environmental Restoration
Task Force (DERTF) meetings
and annual in September in Washington DC. By combining Caucus meetings with
outreach to national base cleanup policymakers, Caucus participants will
maximize their opportunities to influence federal cleanup and reuse policy.

THE DEFENSE ENVIRONMENTAL RESPONSE TASK FORCE

The DERTF is the Federal Advisory Committee for the Pentagon's base closure
cleanup program. The DERTF is composed of federal, state and public
representatives. Its members include the USEPA, the National Association of
Attorney Generals, the Western Governors Association, the Urban Institute, 
and
the Environment and Energy Study Institute. It is chaired by the Deputy Under
Secretary of Defense f
or Environmental Security, Ms. Sherry Wassermann Goodman whose office staffs
the DERTF.

The DERTF process offers an important opportunity to bring community voices 
to
DoD planners and advisors. Its meetings are open, there is public comment. 
RAB
members can address the committee and meet key people directly advising and
managing the Pentagon's Installation Restoration and BRAC programs.

REPORT ON THE
NATIONAL CAUCUS OF COMMUNITY MEMBERS OF RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARDS MEETING
JANUARY 25-26 1997 PHOENIX, ARIZONA

On January 25-26 1997, 40 individuals from 35 RABs from around the country
participated in the first national meeting of RAB community members. The
Caucus was extremely successful. Interest in the Caucus exceeded Arc
Ecology's expectations for the first round of organizing. Town Creek and
Ottinger Foundations provide scholarships for 25 RAB Community Members to
participate in the Caucus. The reg
istrants come from twenty four states including Alaska, Washington, Colorado,
Florida, Texas, Maine, California and Massachusetts. Nearly a dozen others
were not able to attend without financial support, however the greater than
expected interest was offset by the availability of funding for travel and
lodging. A number of individuals paid their own way at great expense to 
attend
the meeting. Tw
o individuals paid their own way from Anchorage Alaska. From the results we
are absolutely convinced that if more RAB members were made aware of the
Caucus process they would be happy to participate.
The Caucus meeting dovetailed with the January meeting of the Defense
Environmental Response Task Force. The Caucus meeting had the following 
impacts:

Assistant Deputy Under Secretary of Defense (Environmental Cleanup) agrees to
reconsider DoD policy on RAB adjournment. DoD decides to put RAB policy up
for public comment through the Federal Register.

RAB community members are invited to sit on two Defense Environmental 
Response
Task Force panels on institutional controls during the July 1998 DERTF 
meeting.

CAUCUS DECISIONS

Participants in the Caucus meeting agreed to continue the organization of a
National Caucus of RAB Community Members through to the National RAB Caucus
Convention being organized by Arc Ecology for September 1998. At the
Convention, RAB members will decide on whether to formalize Caucus into an
ongoing effort.

Caucus participants also agreed to the organization of a regional Caucus
meeting around the July 1998 meeting of DERTF in Chicago in anticipation of
the September meeting. At the last meeting of the January Caucus it was
decided that there will only be a small delegation of representatives from 
the
January Caucus/ DERTF meeting attending the July DERTF meeting to save money
for scholarships to th
e September meeting.

"This [the Caucus] is the first time citizens living near military
installations have joined together to try to influence national policy on how
the military conducts its cleanups...Pat Rivers, who heads DoD's cleanup
program and chaired this particular DERTF meeting, announced that in response
to citizen concern, DoD would seek wide public comment before developing a 
RAB
adjournment policy. "Defe
nse Environment Alert (an industry newsletter)

THE JULY 19 AND 20 CAUCUS MEETING

The formal Caucus takes place on July 19th and 20th, before the DERTF 
meeting.
 Caucuses will continue to occur concurrently with the DERTF meeting so that
RAB community members can react to the discussions as a caucus if people
choose to. A short wrap-up meeting will take place after the DERTF meeting.
The Caucus meeting will be facilitated by a professional independent
facilitator who is also
 a RAB Community Member. Arc will produce and distribute the proceedings of
the Caucus.
The Caucus meeting & lodging will take place at the DAYS INN, Niles 6450 West
Touhy Avenue,
Niles Illinois 60714, Phone 847-647-7700

JULY CAUCUS MEETING DRAFT AGENDA

SUNDAY, 7/19
10am Welcome - Background on the Caucus Process
10:30 Report from the January Meeting
11:00 Report on Workplan Survey
12:00 Lunch
1:30pm RAB Roundtable
 Reports from Individual RABs
3:30 Break
3:45 History of Cleanup Program
 Background
 Current Status
Health Risk
Institutional Controls
Early Transfers
5:30 Recess
6:30 Dinner

MONDAY 7/20
9am Welcome, agenda review, and introductions of participants
9:30 Current Status of Cleanup Briefing
 Range Rule
Munitions Dialogue
Lead
New EPA Soil Sampling Protocol
Upcoming Guidances
Legislative Update
FY99 Budget
11:15 Break
11:30 DERTF Background and Discussion
1pm Lunch
2:30 DERTF Agenda
Discussion of topics and responses, if any, from Caucus
Development of Caucus statement to DERTF for presentation at public comment 
period
3:00 Discussion of Planned Presentations to DERTF
Discussion of individual RAB members comments to DERTF
4:30 Break
4:15 The September Caucus Convention
Outreach
Designing Workshops and Agenda
Policy Questions
Should we let individuals from overseas base communities observe the meeting?
Should we let non-Community Members participate?
6:00 Review of decisions
Summary of tasks and assignments
Development of timeline for implementation
7:00 Dinner and conversation

TUESDAY 7/21
Daytime Attend DERTF meeting. Outreach to DERTF members and program personnel
1pm -4:30 Spill over time for unresolved Caucus discussions
4:30pm Recess

WEDNESDAY 7/22
Daytime Attend DERTF meeting. Outreach to DERTF members and program personnel
7:00pm Presentation of Caucus and individual RAB community member statements
to DERTF during public comment period

THURSDAY 7/23
Daytime Attend DERTF meeting. Outreach to DERTF members and program personnel
5:30pm Summary of DERTF meeting, development of response, if needed.
6:30pm Conclusion of July Caucus.

THE JULY 21 - 23 DERTF MEETING

MEET IN JULY
AND TALK WITH THE DERTF

The following is the latest agenda for the July DERTF meeting which will take
place at the Doubletree Hotel North Shore, 9599 Skokie Blvd., Skokie, 
Illinois
847-679-7000. The Caucus will meet the Sunday and Monday prior to and
concurrently with the DERTF meeting.

UPDATED DERTF AGENDA

TUESDAY 7/21
7:30am Registration
8:00 Executive session
 Sherri W. Goodman, Deputy Under Secretary of Defense/ Environmental
Security, Chair of the DERTF
9:30 Administrative remarks
 Shah Choudhury,
DERTF Executive Secretary
9:45 Opening remarks
 Ms. Goodman,
10:00 Review of Business items
 Shah Choudhury
 Approve January 1998 meeting minutes
 Review open action items
10:30 Break
10:45 Panel presentation on progress of BRAC environmental cleanup
 Bob Turkeltaub, ODUSD-EQ
Lisa Tyschen, USEPA Federal Facilities Reuse and Restoration Office
11:45 Lunch
1:15 Introduction to Naval Air Station Glenview Segment
 Sherri Goodman
1:30 Presentation of NAS Glenview Reuse Plan
 Paul McCarthy, Village of Glenview
2:15 Presentation on NAS Glenview environmental activities
 Ralph Watkins, BRAC Environmental Coordinator NAS Glenview
Charlene Falco, Illinois EPA, Glenview BCT member
Ken Klewin, US EPA Glenview BCT member
3:00 Questions and Answers/ Discussion
 Ms. Goodman
3:30 Break and boarding buses for base tour
3:45 Tour of NAS Glenview
5:00 Dinner Break
7:00 GLENVIEW RAB MEETING
8:30 Recess/ Buses Depart for Hotel

WEDNESDAY 7/22
8:00am Background for Day 2 Topics
Fast Track Cleanup Process
FOST Review Process
 Phyllis Breland, DoD Base Closure and Transition Office
8:30 Defining the Cleanup Process Beyond Remedy in Place
 Mario Ierardi, Air Force Base Conversion Agency
Mary Sanderson, USEPA
Clarence Smith, ASTSWMO Base Closure Task Force/ Illinois EPA
Shirley Curry, AFBCA
10:00 Break
10:30 Overview of Institutional Controls
 Catherine Hill, University of Virginia School of Architecture
John Pendergrass, Environmental Law Institute
Aimee Houghton, Center for Public Environmental Oversight
Barry Steinberg, National Association of Installation Developers
12:00 Lunch
1:30 Institutional Controls and Environmental Cleanup
 Larry Eastep, Illinois EPA Bureau of Land
Joe Schilling, International City/County Managers Association
Robert Taylor, DoD Office of General Counsel
Eve Bach, National Caucus of Restoration Advisory Board Community Members -
Arc Ecology Economist/ Planner
3:00 Break
3:30 BRAC Property Disposal
Records Management
 John Kelly, General Services Administration
Janice Howell, Army
Jack Kane, Navy
Bob Menke, Air Force
5:00 Break
7:00 Public Comment Period

National RAB Caucus Testimony
Technical Issues
Range Rule Issues
Theodore Henry, Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland
Risk Assessment
Peter Haas, Westover Air Reserve Base, Massachusetts
Environmental Justice
Armando Quintanilla, Kelly Air Force Base, Texas
Elary Gromoff, Naval Air Facility Adak, Alaska
DoD and California's Public Trust
Eve Bach, Public Trust Working Group
Administrative Issues
Guidance Dispute - RAB and Technical Review Committee
Scott Alan, Fort Ord Army Base
Bylaws and Base Environmental Coordinators
Doug Kern, Presidio Army Base
Regional RAB Comments
Christine Gover, Keyport NUWC
Sandra Jaquith, Rocky Mountain Arsenal
Michael Miller, Air Force Plant 42
Lyle Talbot, RAB Caucus
Closing Caucus Comments - Proposal to expedite the release of RAB member 
lists
Saul Bloom

General Public Comments
Time TBD Recess

THURSDAY 7/23
9:00am Administrative remarks
 Mr. Choudhury
9:15 Discussion of information papers:
DoI Policy on Accepting Property
Early Transfer Authority (DoD)
Pryor Amendment (Sec. 2908)/ETA (Section 334) Relationship (DoD)
Interagency Guidance on Lead Based Paint
Study of Blood Lead Levels for Military Dependents
National Trust for Historic Preservation Approach to NCR Management
Range Rule Update (DoD)
Groundwater Remedy Guidance (DoD)
Navy Groundwater Remedy Data
Site Security (EPA)
Superfund Reform EPA
 Ms. Goodman
11:15 Review of Annual Report To Congress Findings and Recommendations
 Ms. Goodman
12:30 Lunch
2:00 Annual Report to Congress
 Ms. Goodman
4:00 New business
July 1998 Meeting
Other Matters
 Ms. Goodman
5:00 Adjournment

ABOUT ATTENDING THE JULY CAUCUS AND DERTF MEETINGS

ATTENDING THE CAUCUS IS FREE TO ALL RAB COMMUNITY MEMBERS.

If you are a RAB community member, the meeting and all of the supporting
material, are free.

As per the Caucus' decisions in January, only 8 travel stipends were made
available for the Illinois Caucus. Individuals wishing to attend the Caucus
at their own travel and lodging expense should fill out the enclosed
registration form.

To register simply fill out the form and do one of the following things.

Email: To email us the form please copy the form alone to a text file and
upload it to us at our email address of arc@igc.org.

Fax: You can also fax the form to us at 415-495-1787

Mail: Mail the registration form to Arc Ecology 833 Market Street, Suite
1107, San Francisco, CA 94103.

Arc will be organizing a shuttle between the airport and the Caucus meeting
and between the Caucus location and the DERTF location. Please let us know if
you need to be picked up at the air port.

BACKGROUND ON THE RAB CAUCUS

RAB COMMUNITY MEMBER CAUCUSES IN CALIFORNIA

The first RAB Community Member Caucus was convened by Arc Ecology in December
1994 in San Francisco. During that meeting RAB community members from around
the San Francisco and Monterey Bay Areas agreed to work together to improve
the RAB process. In October of 1995 Arc Ecology convened a California
Caucus. The objectives of the California RAB Caucus were to speed cleanup
toward flexible reuse,
 to improve the conditions for RAB community members, and to ensure good
quality environmental restoration of military bases in the State.

Ultimately, the California RAB Caucus grew to include community members from
the RABs of the Naval Shipyards at Hunters Point in San Francisco and Mare
Island in Vallejo; Naval Air Stations Alameda and Moffett Field in Mountain
View; Naval Station Treasure Island in San Francisco, the Fleet Industrial
Supply Center in Oakland, the Concord Naval Weapons Depot in Concord, Tustin
and El Toro Mari
ne Corps Air Bases and the 39th Street Naval Training Facility in San Diego.
Fort Ord and the Presidio Army Base had members participating in the
California Caucus as did Castle, McClellan, Edwards and Norton Air Force 
bases.

Among the accomplishments of the San Francisco and Monterey Bay Area RAB
Community Member Caucus and California RAB Caucus are:

Obtaining the agreement of the Navy's Engineering and Facilities Activity 
West
to allow the participation of RAB members in Base Cleanup Team and Remedial
Managers meetings; and
Obtaining the agreement of the California Environmental Protection Agency to
expand its Base Closures Environmental Advisory Group to include more RAB 
representation.

The California RAB Caucus meetings were concurrent with the tri-annular
meetings of the Cal-EPA Base Closures Environmental Advisory Group,
California's version of the DERTF. From 1995 to the end of 1996, the Caucus
exerted a growing influence on the cleanup process in California.
Unfortunately, the Defense Department cut funding for California's base
cleanup program which in turn forced the Cal
-EPA to cut the funding for the Advisory Group.

ENVISIONING A NATIONAL CAUCUS

With the demise of the Cal EPA Base Closures Environmental Advisory Group,
many in the California Caucus felt that it was most important to organize a
national caucus. The thinking was that while a good deal could be done
locally and Statewide, the problems regarding base cleanup policy were mostly
at the national level. To implement the proposal, Arc set about fundraising 
to
get that process goi
ng. In the spring of this year, Arc received funding from the Ottinger and
Town Creek Foundations to begin organizing.

RABS WITH COMMUNITY MEMBERS PARTICIPATING IN THE JANUARY CAUCUS

NOAA/ Adak Naval Facility, Anchorage, AK
Luke Air Force Base, Glendale, AZ
Tucson Int. Airport Area Super Fund Site, Tucson, AZ

Beale Air Force Base, Marysville, CA
Air Force Plant 42, Palmdale, CA
Fort Ord Army Base, Marina/Seaside, CA
Hunters Point Naval Shipyard, San Francisco, CA
Long Beach Naval Complex, Long Beach, CA
Mather Air Force Base, Rancho Cordova, CA
Marine Corps Air Station El Toro, Orange County, CA
McClellan Air Force Base, Sacramento, CA
Oakland Army Base, Oakland, CA
Presidio Army Base, San Francisco, CA
Point Molate Naval Fuel Depot, Richmond, CA
Treasure Island Naval Station, San Francisco, CA
Fort Carson Army Base, Colorado Springs, CO
Rocky Mountain Arsenal, Adams County, CO
Naval Air Station Cecil Field, Jacksonville, FL
Westover Air Reserve Base, Westover, MA
Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Lexington, MD
Naval Air Station Brunswick, Brunswick, ME
Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant, St. Paul, MN
Vance Air Force Base, Enid, OK
Aberdeen Proving Ground (Army), Edgewood, MD
Grand Forks Air Force Base, Grand Forks, ND
Fort Campbell, Army Base, Clarksville, TN
Kelly Air Force Base, San Antonio,TX
US Army Fort Bliss, El Paso, TX
Hill Air Force Base, Ogden, UT
Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren, VA
Norfolk Naval Shipyard, Norfolk, VA
Keyport Naval Undersea Training Center/ Liberty Bay, Keyport, WA
Fairchild Air Force Base / Washington Air Guard, Spokane, WA

A WORD ABOUT ARC ECOLOGY

Arc Ecology is a public interest nonprofit organization focused on the 
impacts
of the military on the environment, economy and international security. Arc
Ecology has been involved in the military toxics and base cleanup issue since
1984. Arc Ecology's staff, volunteer staff, and board are made up of
environmental scientists, economist planners, and community organizers. Arc
is represented
on six RABs in the San Francisco Bay Area and works with many more around the
country. Arc also provides technical support to grassroots base cleanup
campaigns in the Philippines, England, Wales, Scotland and Okinawa.

SUMMARY: GET INVOLVED WITH THE CAUCUS

For RAB community members concerned about their RABs and the outcome of the
cleanup of military bases, the July Caucus and DERTF meetings offer an
opportunity to come together, develop strategies and make our issues known.
It offers a real and direct way for RAB members to begin to affect national
policy while working in a positive, supportive and educational Caucus
environment. It offers an op
portunity to build an ongoing, substantive network of RAB community members
that will provide the resources to succeed at home and the coordination to
succeed nationally.

JULY 98 RAB COMMUNITY MEMBER CAUCUS REGISTRATION FORM

Please help us reserve your place at the RAB Caucus meeting by filling out 
the
form below. Pre-registration is the best way we have to determine the number
of packets, size of facility and rooms we need to accommodate Caucus 
participants.

YOU MUST BE A RAB COMMUNITY MEMBER TO ATTEND
THE RAB COMMUNITY MEMBER CAUCUS MEETING

RAB Affiliation _____________________________________________

State ________ City/ Town _________________________________

Name _____________________________________________________

Address ___________________________________________________

City/ Town ________________________________________________

State _________ ZIP __________________

Phone _________________________

FAX __________________________

E-mail _________________________

Check if you are an officer of the RAB: Community CoChair _____ Other
(please specify) _____________ 

Shall we register you for the DERTF meeting Yes___No __

Return To:
Arc Ecology
833 Market Street, Suite 1107
San Francisco, CA 94103
Phone: 415.495.1786 Fax 415.495.1787. Email arc@igc.org

* If you don't plan on attending, but want to help other RAB community 
members
participate in the July Caucus, you can make a tax deductible contribution to
the RAB Community Member Caucus Transportation Fund c/o Arc Ecology.

cut along dotted line

Fellow RAB Members:

The National Caucus of Restoration Advisory Boards is announcing its July
19-20 Illinois Regional meeting. The meeting will coincide with the Defense
Environmental Response Task Force (DERTF) meeting scheduled for the
21st-23rd. The DERTF is the Pentagon's advisory committee on base closure
cleanup and Caucus participants will be participating in panels and making a
series of presentations during the public comment period. The agenda for
both the Caucus and the DERTF meetings is enclosed as an attached file. To
our friends in the military, contractor and regulatory community please
remember that RAB Caucus meetings are restricted to RAB Community Members 
only.

There are no scholarships available for this meeting at this time. At the
January Caucus meeting in Phoenix, the participants agreed to limit the
number of scholarships for participation in the Illinois meeting because it
is regional in scope and it was the desire of the Caucus to save funds to
enable more RAB members to attend the National Convention of Restoration
Advisory Board Members in Washington DC this September. The limited
scholarships were used to provide transportation and lodging for January
Caucus participants making presentations at the July DERTF meeting.
Nevertheless, we would like to remind folks that: if you can make it on
your own to the meetings it is open to all RAB Community Members that wish
to attend. Please use the attached registration form in the back of the RAB
Caucus packet if you wish to attend. You'll need Word 6.0. or Adobe Acrobat
to open the file.

PLEASE NOTE: IF YOU CAN ATTEND ONLY ONE RAB CAUCUS MEETING THIS YEAR:
PLEASE ATTEND THE SEPTEMBER CONVENTION. The preliminary September packet is
being developed right now and you will be receiving it in a few weeks.
Scholarships will be available for the September Convention.

The RAB Caucus Meeting will be held North of Chicago at the Days Inn Niles,
6450 West Touhy Ave., Niles, IL and the DERTF Meeting will be held at the
Doubletree Hotel North Shore, 9599 Skokie Blvd., Skokie, IL. The dates of
the RAB Caucus Meeting are July 19 and 20, while the DERTF Meeting will be
from July 21 through 23.

We have contacted all five of the Illinois RABs: Fort Sheridan, Joliet Army
Ammunition Plant, Glenview Naval Air Station, Libertyville Training Site and
Chanute Air Force Base and all have expressed interest in attending the
Chicago RAB Caucus.

We are expecting community RAB members from 20 different bases to be
represented at the RAB Caucus Meeting. We hope the Illinois Caucus will be
as successfull as the January meeting in Phoenix and contribute to the
success of the Washington Caucus Convention.

There are ten RAB Caucus participants from across the country who will be
attending the RAB Caucus and DERTF meetings to make presentations on
specific topics. The following is a list of Caucus participants attending
the Illionis RAB Caucus meetings and the issues they will be presenting to
DERTF.